Presence Listening in E-Prime. Comments? Views? Opinions? Experiences?
Namaste, Wabi Seeker
In a discussion of presence listening Cornell pg 63 recommends
Focuser: It's saying "I'm sick of working so hard!"
Companion: You're hearing it say "I'm sick of working so hard."
A TO BE form appears twice in the Focuser's sentence: 1. "You're hearing" and 2. "I'm sick."
1. Dealing with progression and continuity.
Kodish and Kodish and others recommend using TO BE for the progressive form. Scorpio, on the other hand, recommends one reinstate process in the subject/object divide. Technically, the use of TO BE to express progression or continuity does not introduce an Aristotelian error of identification. However, some E-Prime advocates recommend that the continual use of TO BE in the progressive form tends to make the use in the identification form something which one falls into more easily. Moreover, the sentence fragment presents an opportunity to introduce and reinforce process directly. In this case, we can actively link the Focuser to the process of hearing pulling the Focuser more into the present.
Scorpio would recommend the response began
Companion: You continue to hear it say ...
or
Companion: You keep on hearing it say ...
2. Breaking the Is-ness predication, invoking disidentification.
Repeating "I'm sick" reinforces the attachment of the Focuser with sickness.
Here, speaking in e-Prime, the Companion would translate the quotation of
the Focuser into
Companion: ... "I feel sick of working so hard!"
So, In E-Prime, the Companion would say
Companion: You continue to hear it say "I feel sick of working so hard!"
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Cornell: Ann Weiser and Barbara McGavin. The Focusing Student's and
Companion's Manual, Part One. 2002. www.focusingresources.com/awc.html
Kodish and Kodish. Drive Yourself Sane. http"//www.amazon.com/exec/obido.....95176-4323832
Scorpio, Dan. www.angelfire.com/nd/danscorpio/ep2.html
Namaste, Wabi Seeker
In a discussion of presence listening Cornell pg 63 recommends
Focuser: It's saying "I'm sick of working so hard!"
Companion: You're hearing it say "I'm sick of working so hard."
A TO BE form appears twice in the Focuser's sentence: 1. "You're hearing" and 2. "I'm sick."
1. Dealing with progression and continuity.
Kodish and Kodish and others recommend using TO BE for the progressive form. Scorpio, on the other hand, recommends one reinstate process in the subject/object divide. Technically, the use of TO BE to express progression or continuity does not introduce an Aristotelian error of identification. However, some E-Prime advocates recommend that the continual use of TO BE in the progressive form tends to make the use in the identification form something which one falls into more easily. Moreover, the sentence fragment presents an opportunity to introduce and reinforce process directly. In this case, we can actively link the Focuser to the process of hearing pulling the Focuser more into the present.
Scorpio would recommend the response began
Companion: You continue to hear it say ...
or
Companion: You keep on hearing it say ...
2. Breaking the Is-ness predication, invoking disidentification.
Repeating "I'm sick" reinforces the attachment of the Focuser with sickness.
Here, speaking in e-Prime, the Companion would translate the quotation of
the Focuser into
Companion: ... "I feel sick of working so hard!"
So, In E-Prime, the Companion would say
Companion: You continue to hear it say "I feel sick of working so hard!"
--------------------
Cornell: Ann Weiser and Barbara McGavin. The Focusing Student's and
Companion's Manual, Part One. 2002. www.focusingresources.com/awc.html
Kodish and Kodish. Drive Yourself Sane. http"//www.amazon.com/exec/obido.....95176-4323832
Scorpio, Dan. www.angelfire.com/nd/danscorpio/ep2.html
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Re: Presence Listening in E-Prime. Comments?
Tue, April 26, 2005 - 10:44 PMFor a person operating in E-Prime, reacting to someone who has the verb "to be" firmly entrenched, seems like pushing a canoe up-stream in white-water rapids.
Su -
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Re: Presence Listening in E-Prime. Comments?
Wed, May 4, 2005 - 4:42 AMThat is very annoying. ;) -
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Re: Presence Listening in E-Prime. Comments?
Wed, May 4, 2005 - 7:43 AMThat seems very annoying ... RAFLMAO
Su
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Re: Presence Listening in E-Prime. Comments?
Wed, April 27, 2005 - 1:12 AMIn this context, how would you rate the importance of continuity?
It seems to me that the Companion reflects the *immediate* experience of the Focuser. The immediate experience probably does reflect on-going processes, but focussing seeks to avoid dissipating attention over the longer time-frame. You may construe it differently...
With this in mind, I'd suggest:
"You hear it say...", or even better "You hear [this tightness in your chest] say..."
For the other part - I have a mixed response to the Companion rewording the Focuser's direct report. The Focusser might find it helpful, but on the other hand it can feel manipulative and disrespectful. If you judged it worth doing, the suggested "I feel sick of..." sounds just fine to me.
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Re: Presence Listening in E-Prime. Comments?
Wed, May 4, 2005 - 12:47 PMI'm new to the E-Prime idea, so please correct any of my misperceptions.
The fragment "You're hearing it say" does not translate directly to "You continue to hear it say," in my opinion. True, both indicate an ongoing event. However, the first fragment implies that the event began pretty close to the current time, and the second fragment implies that the event began far enough in the past that the speaker now feels wearied.
A truly anal student of logic and linguistics might see them as exactly the same, but I think a normal person would infer an emotional difference. -
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Re: Presence Listening in E-Prime. Comments?
Wed, May 4, 2005 - 1:33 PMChuckle! And what constitutes "normal"? -
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Re: Presence Listening in E-Prime. Comments?
Wed, May 4, 2005 - 5:37 PMSigh. Someone not an expert in this field. Someone who speaks English well, but who does not spend a significant amount of time studying language.
Did you seriously not understand what I meant? -
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Re: Presence Listening in E-Prime. Comments?
Wed, May 4, 2005 - 7:06 PMSigh indeed! Back to General Semantics and its injunction against "labeling" leading to false to fact conclusions ie "normal" people do not study this area. -
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Re: Presence Listening in E-Prime. Comments?
Thu, May 5, 2005 - 11:55 AMDo you have another word that you prefer? "Non-linguists," perhaps? -
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Re: Presence Listening in E-Prime. Comments?
Thu, May 5, 2005 - 2:51 PMWhy would I want to exchange one label for another? -
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Re: Presence Listening in E-Prime. Comments?
Thu, May 5, 2005 - 4:09 PMNo reason. I was just hoping you'd be able to contribute to the discussion. -
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Unsu...
Re: Presence Listening in E-Prime. Comments?
Thu, May 5, 2005 - 5:03 PMLOL!
Hello Mark,
I infer that George's point runs thus: instead of using the label "normal," you could have said "I think MOST people would infer an emotional difference." Or, instead of "most," you could use any of: few, several, some, many, all... etc.
This would have both avoided separatist labelling and proved more descriptive of what you actually think.
Regards,
Tim -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Presence Listening in E-Prime. Comments?
Thu, May 5, 2005 - 5:18 PMAh, OK, thank you. This meets my need. I wanted some constructive input.
However, I see some issues: I don't know much about E-Prime, but I do know something about logic and rhetoric. Phrases such as "most people" and "many people" express less exact groupings than expressions like "non-linguists." Why is the rhetorically weak "most people" superior to the more precise "non-linguists"?
Also, what problems do labels represent? All noun forms label objects or ideas. A language without without labels, without nouns, seems unfeasible. -
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Unsu...
Re: Presence Listening in E-Prime. Comments?
Fri, May 6, 2005 - 5:32 PMHello Mark,
>>Phrases such as "most people" and "many people" express less exact groupings than expressions like "non-linguists." Why is the rhetorically weak "most people" superior to the more precise "non-linguists"?<<
I'll quote the phrase that started this line of discussion off: "A truly anal student of logic and linguistics might see them as exactly the same, but I think a normal person would infer an emotional difference."
Several problems exist with this wording: first, it implies Non-Normal status of any "truly anal student of logic and linguistics." Secondly, it implies that people in the Normal category can't follow the train of thought in question. Third, it implies that "Normal" (with its correlary "Non-Normal") exist in the first place.
In this context, "most people" actually provides a more accurate description of reality than the label "non-linguist."
>>Also, what problems do labels represent? All noun forms label objects or ideas. A language without without labels, without nouns, seems unfeasible.<<
Labels per se present no problems. People often apply them without careful thought, however, resulting in "distorted" world-views.
As an example, I could apply these labels to myself: father, husband, brother, son, student, magician, heterosexual, monogamous, male, intelligent, sane, caucasian, aboriginal, extrovert, introvert.
If I used any of these labels, no one would call me a liar. However, if I saw those labels as actual descriptors of reality, I would impede my ability to drop them in circumstances where they no longer apply. By seeing them as "just labels," I increase my flexibility.
For instance, most people feel fine with the idea of labelling themselves "male" or "female." This results in a skewed world-view with "male" seen as sharply and staticly divided from "female." Never-mind such factors as: gender roles depend largely on culture and upbringing, in nature we see blurring of gender separation (hermaphrodites and freemartins), and some humans identify stronger with "the opposite sex" than "their own."
By using labels like "normal" and "non-linguist," you presuppose that these categories have reality, that they have a sharp and static division from each other, and everyone shares the same perception of that reality and those divisions.
I hope this helps,
Tim -
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Re: Presence Listening in E-Prime. Comments?
Sat, May 7, 2005 - 8:09 PMI agree that label imply sharply-divided categories that do not actually exist. I think it excellent that we all strive to recognize that humans artificially divide reality into chunks, that the sharp divisions do not exist.
I write software manuals for a living. I hoped that E-Prime might provide techniques for increasing clarity. However, the few examples I've seen seemed to focus more on following the letter of the E-Prime law than the spirit. Common clarity seems sacrificed instead of enhanced. Is this common to E-Prime discussions, or did I hit an unfortunate introduction?
Let me give an example that's similar to the one I was trying to make in the beginning: I write software manuals for a living. A group of technical writers say arguing the merits of the construction "and/or" in sentences. One guy said that the construction was redundant because "or implies and" logically (in Boolean algebra.) I argued that while "or" does imply "and" in Boolean algebra, to most people "or" is an "exclusive or." If you tell a child she can have a doll or a coloring book, you don't generally mean she can have both.
So, if your audience is engineers, then perhaps you can assume that they think of "or" as implying "and." If your audience is not engineers, then it's best to assume they don't. It provides no constructive information to say that "most people" or "many people" think "or" is exclusive. You need to know which people know it. The category serves a useful purpose in this instance.
Anyway, if someone could suggest a good beginner book in E-Prime, I would appreciate it. -
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Unsu...
Re: Presence Listening in E-Prime. Comments?
Sun, May 8, 2005 - 5:36 PMHello Mark,
>>I write software manuals for a living. I hoped that E-Prime might provide techniques for increasing clarity. However, the few examples I've seen seemed to focus more on following the letter of the E-Prime law than the spirit. Common clarity seems sacrificed instead of enhanced. Is this common to E-Prime discussions, or did I hit an unfortunate introduction?<<
When one first starts using e-prime, it can seem stilted at first. It takes practise. Note that I have used e-prime exlusively in this coversation. Does it seem that I have sacrificed clarity?
>>So, if your audience is engineers, then perhaps you can assume that they think of "or" as implying "and." If your audience is not engineers, then it's best to assume they don't. It provides no constructive information to say that "most people" or "many people" think "or" is exclusive. You need to know which people know it. The category serves a useful purpose in this instance.<<
Perhaps you mean your audience consists of people with degrees in engineering, or people who earn a living as engineers? Saying someone "is" an engineer reduces the person to that function, and doesn't really say much about their actual past or present circumstances. Saying someone has an engineering degree or earns a living as an engineer proves much more descriptive... and yet more humanising as well.
Although, since you raise the topic of target audiences, it bears pointing out that in some contexts, e-prime can actually "get you in trouble". Many people in academic and scientific circles demand passive voice in "serious" work. The official Melbourne University guide to writing an essay emphasises the importance of littering one's papers with "be," "is," "are," "was," etc, because passive voice apparently makes writing seem more "professional." (Personally, I disagree, and it flies in the face of what I learned in first-year History and Philosophy of Science to boot.)
Regards,
Tim -
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Re: Presence Listening in E-Prime. Comments?
Sun, May 8, 2005 - 8:23 PM"When one first starts using e-prime, it can seem stilted at first. It takes practise. Note that I have used e-prime exlusively in this coversation. Does it seem that I have sacrificed clarity?"
I do struggle with E-Prime. I tried to write without using verbs of being, but frequently struggled with my sentences. For example, I wanted to say that "I am struggling with E-Prime," but changed it. I'm not sure the sentence I did use possessed greater clarity. In fact, I think it didn't, since I subtly changed the meaning in order to not use a verb of being.
"Perhaps you mean your audience consists of people with degrees in engineering, or people who earn a living as engineers? Saying someone "is" an engineer reduces the person to that function, and doesn't really say much about their actual past or present circumstances. Saying someone has an engineering degree or earns a living as an engineer proves much more descriptive... and yet more humanising as well. "
I see what you mean, I think. However, a lot of the people I worked with who earned a living as software engineers did not possess engineering degrees. Others had engineering training, but were doing other jobs at the time I met them (sales, IT, QA testing). Others had studied logic, but not engineering. Perhaps the phrase "thinks like an engineer" would work. Or, perhaps the phrase "comfortable with Boolean logic" would work. Both of these examples, however, seem excessively wordy without actually adding meaning. However, the act of *trying* to find another way of saying it forces me to think more precisely and more clearly, which, so far, is the chief value I see in all this.
"Although, since you raise the topic of target audiences, it bears pointing out that in some contexts, e-prime can actually "get you in trouble". Many people in academic and scientific circles demand passive voice in "serious" work. The official Melbourne University guide to writing an essay emphasises the importance of littering one's papers with "be," "is," "are," "was," etc, because passive voice apparently makes writing seem more "professional." (Personally, I disagree, and it flies in the face of what I learned in first-year History and Philosophy of Science to boot.) "
Yes, I believe proponents of passive voice originally wanted to remove the person from the experiment, to foster the perception of objective science. For "real science," it should not matter who did the experiment - the results should be the same no matter who does it. This approach does lead to extremely turgid writing.
Social sciences adopted this technique to better mirror "hard sciences," I believe, but there has been a growing trend toward more readable prose over the past few decades, I think.
Anyway, any E-Prime texts you can recommend? -
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Unsu...
Re: Presence Listening in E-Prime. Comments?
Mon, May 9, 2005 - 3:52 PMHello Mark,
>>Anyway, any E-Prime texts you can recommend?<<
Nah, got it all of the Net. I first heard about it from George :) I eventually decided to take it up as an experiment and found that I enjoyed the challenge as well as the more subtle fringe benefits.
I do know of one text written entirely in pure e-prime (including no first-person.) It has the name "Psybermagick" by Peter Carroll. I don't see "chaos magic" or the ilk in your list of interests, however, so I feel uncertain about whether or not to *recommend* it...
Warm Regards,
Tim -
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Re: Presence Listening in E-Prime. Comments?
Tue, May 10, 2005 - 12:35 PMI tend to be interested in almost anything, though I'm not familiar with chaos magic. I did read up on magic a few years ago. I liked candles, so I got a book on candle magic. A woman I dated was Wiccan, so I would browse through her books on nature magic and goddess magic and the like. But, I don't really know how all that fits together, or how it might be similar to or different from chaos magic.
That said, I'm more interested in something that explains the philosophy and rules of E-Prime than I am a book written using E-Prime. Maybe once I know more about it, seeing a book written in it would be helpful.
You say you got it all off the Net. Did you find any web sites that you felt provided more useful information than others? -
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Unsu...
Re: Presence Listening in E-Prime. Comments?
Tue, May 10, 2005 - 4:02 PMHello Mark,
Mainly just this one for general semantics:
www.general-semantics.org/
For e-prime, a search came up with:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-prime
Good luck,
Tim -
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Re: Presence Listening in E-Prime. Comments?
Tue, May 10, 2005 - 4:58 PMAnd if you go to my web-site, ChaoSonata
www.chaosonata.com
In the Letters to Strangers section you will find my article on E-Prime which delves into the "how to do this without tearing your hair out" type of approach.
Su -
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Re: Presence Listening in E-Prime. Comments?
Wed, May 11, 2005 - 10:37 AMyour site looks interesting, Su, i'll have to examine it at my leisure later....right away, i like the Beardsley drawings! :)
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