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Proponents of E-Prime claim that by removing all uses of the verb “to be” from the English language, we can more accurately evaluate the world and the relation of the human mind to that world. Noticing that SOME uses of the verb “to be” smuggle in metaphysical assumptions, disguise opinion as fact, and cloud our view of experiential data, advocates of E-Prime recommend that we throw out ALL uses of this multifarious verb. This “linguistic cleansing” is supposed to get rid of our habitual language-based prejudices and allow us to think more clearly. This strikes me as an exceedingly simple-minded and clumsy approach to a complex and multifaceted problem, a bit like amputating a persons foot to treat an ingrown toenail (if you "are" an E-Prime enthusiast and find this sentence completely bone-headed, at least note that it used no form of the "forbidden verb").
Contrary to what E-Primers say, it seems to me that there are plenty of perfectly legitimate and helpful uses of the verb “to be.”
Consider for example, the present progressive tense. “What is Bob doing?” “Bob is jogging”. I find it difficult to see any principled reason to call this a misuse of language. It communicates clearly what “is” taking place in the world (assuming Bob “is” in fact jogging). With E-Prime, we lose the present progressive tense. E-Primers can try to sidestep this by saying something awkward, like “Bob currently jogs” or something that doesn’t strictly answer the question, like “Bob went jogging 20 minutes ago.” But aside from a heroic devotion to purging the English language of “isness” come what may, it’s hard to see why either of these are preferable to the simple and informative “Bob is jogging.”
Another use of “is” that seems perfectly legitimate to me is the “is of class membership.” A square “is” a rectangle, a parrot “is” a bird, a human “is” an animal, and so on. We can also add negatives to this list: A triangle “is not” a rectangle, a spatula “is not” a bird, and a human “is not” a plant. If this use of “isness” is a mistake, I would like to know why.
Yet another use of “to be” forbidden by both E-Prime and General Semantics is the “is of prediction.” This assigns properties and relations to things: this book “is” made of paper and ink; George “is” sad right now; the nearest burger stand “is” northwest of here on High Street. To a normal English speaker, any of these might be a highly informative statement, so why ban them? Why trouble ourselves over ways to recast them in “beingless” terms when their meaning “is” so readily apparent?
And lest we forget, the dreaded “is of identity”--a grand blasphemy against General Semantics, E-Prime, and several other “linguistic cleansing” systems. It seems to me that the is of identity has plenty of reasonable uses, like pointing out that two intentional concepts pick out the same referent. For example, we might say that “the morning star is the evening star,” noting that both of these terms refer to the same object—namely the planet Venus. For someone who did not realize that these two terms referred to the same entity, this use of “is” is informative and accurate. The same goes for the statement “Clark Kent is Superman”. This expresses an important and legitimate identity that gets captured with elegant simplicity by the word “is”. Another example: “heat is molecular motion”. To say that “heat causes molecular motion” or “heat results from molecular motion” would simply be a scientific mistake, like saying “Clark Kent causes Superman” or “Venus causes the Evening Star”. In clumsy E-Prime we could say "Heat equals molecular motion", but this gains us no further insight, and we lose some points in the style department. Identities exist, and I see no reason to dance around them when we have a very simple verb that covers the territory nicely.
All that said, I want to make it emphatically clear that I am not claiming that ALL uses of the verb “to be” are reasonable. I am claiming that SOME are reasonable, and that as such, trying to rid ourselves entirely of the copula seems profoundly undermotivated.
Furthermore, it seems that we can make perfectly idiotic, unjust, incomprehensible, and bigoted claims in perfect E-Prime. Consider a couple of E-Prime friendly statements I found in an article in the current issue of the Christian magazine Charisma: “Greek culture provided a universal language for communicating the gospel, and the Greek’s worldview eroded many of the deceptive foundations of false religion.” Apparently perfect nonsense “is” compatible with perfect E-Prime. The same article later cautions believers: “Don’t miss the revolutionary message of Christmas: The birth of Christ reveals God as a living, supernatural force in the lives of His people.” I won’t bother to enumerate the multitude of problems with this statement, but I will note in passing that use of the verb “to be” is NOT among them. Compare these two massively muddled proclamations with any of the examples of “isness” statements I gave, like “the Morning Star is the Evening Star” or “a square is a type of rectangle,” and consider whether the use of the verb “to be” is the source of our habitually muddled thinking, and whether its elimination would really solve these problems, or merely mask them.
It seems to me that what is needed is not the removal of the copula from our language, but more careful and considered usage of that Swiss Army Knife of verbs. We can evaluate uses of “is” on a case-to-case basis rather than relying on the seemingly dogmatic generalization “is = bad.” I’ve given some uses of “ises” that I consider valid, and these examples can be multiplied indefinitely. There are other evaluational tools that strike me as far more promising than E-Prime, for example what General Semantics calls the “extensional approach” which involves (among other things) making our definitions accountable to the facts, rather than the other way around. Acute awareness of our highly fallible nature is another tool that I believe can improve our evaluating. Neither of these approaches require the banishment of the dreaded copula, though they might help us use it more carefully, which seems to me like a good thing.
My belief that you should all stop worrying and learn to enjoy copulation probably puts me in a small minority in this tribe, but it should make interesting fodder for discussion at any rate. Knowledge “is” always a work in progress.
Contrary to what E-Primers say, it seems to me that there are plenty of perfectly legitimate and helpful uses of the verb “to be.”
Consider for example, the present progressive tense. “What is Bob doing?” “Bob is jogging”. I find it difficult to see any principled reason to call this a misuse of language. It communicates clearly what “is” taking place in the world (assuming Bob “is” in fact jogging). With E-Prime, we lose the present progressive tense. E-Primers can try to sidestep this by saying something awkward, like “Bob currently jogs” or something that doesn’t strictly answer the question, like “Bob went jogging 20 minutes ago.” But aside from a heroic devotion to purging the English language of “isness” come what may, it’s hard to see why either of these are preferable to the simple and informative “Bob is jogging.”
Another use of “is” that seems perfectly legitimate to me is the “is of class membership.” A square “is” a rectangle, a parrot “is” a bird, a human “is” an animal, and so on. We can also add negatives to this list: A triangle “is not” a rectangle, a spatula “is not” a bird, and a human “is not” a plant. If this use of “isness” is a mistake, I would like to know why.
Yet another use of “to be” forbidden by both E-Prime and General Semantics is the “is of prediction.” This assigns properties and relations to things: this book “is” made of paper and ink; George “is” sad right now; the nearest burger stand “is” northwest of here on High Street. To a normal English speaker, any of these might be a highly informative statement, so why ban them? Why trouble ourselves over ways to recast them in “beingless” terms when their meaning “is” so readily apparent?
And lest we forget, the dreaded “is of identity”--a grand blasphemy against General Semantics, E-Prime, and several other “linguistic cleansing” systems. It seems to me that the is of identity has plenty of reasonable uses, like pointing out that two intentional concepts pick out the same referent. For example, we might say that “the morning star is the evening star,” noting that both of these terms refer to the same object—namely the planet Venus. For someone who did not realize that these two terms referred to the same entity, this use of “is” is informative and accurate. The same goes for the statement “Clark Kent is Superman”. This expresses an important and legitimate identity that gets captured with elegant simplicity by the word “is”. Another example: “heat is molecular motion”. To say that “heat causes molecular motion” or “heat results from molecular motion” would simply be a scientific mistake, like saying “Clark Kent causes Superman” or “Venus causes the Evening Star”. In clumsy E-Prime we could say "Heat equals molecular motion", but this gains us no further insight, and we lose some points in the style department. Identities exist, and I see no reason to dance around them when we have a very simple verb that covers the territory nicely.
All that said, I want to make it emphatically clear that I am not claiming that ALL uses of the verb “to be” are reasonable. I am claiming that SOME are reasonable, and that as such, trying to rid ourselves entirely of the copula seems profoundly undermotivated.
Furthermore, it seems that we can make perfectly idiotic, unjust, incomprehensible, and bigoted claims in perfect E-Prime. Consider a couple of E-Prime friendly statements I found in an article in the current issue of the Christian magazine Charisma: “Greek culture provided a universal language for communicating the gospel, and the Greek’s worldview eroded many of the deceptive foundations of false religion.” Apparently perfect nonsense “is” compatible with perfect E-Prime. The same article later cautions believers: “Don’t miss the revolutionary message of Christmas: The birth of Christ reveals God as a living, supernatural force in the lives of His people.” I won’t bother to enumerate the multitude of problems with this statement, but I will note in passing that use of the verb “to be” is NOT among them. Compare these two massively muddled proclamations with any of the examples of “isness” statements I gave, like “the Morning Star is the Evening Star” or “a square is a type of rectangle,” and consider whether the use of the verb “to be” is the source of our habitually muddled thinking, and whether its elimination would really solve these problems, or merely mask them.
It seems to me that what is needed is not the removal of the copula from our language, but more careful and considered usage of that Swiss Army Knife of verbs. We can evaluate uses of “is” on a case-to-case basis rather than relying on the seemingly dogmatic generalization “is = bad.” I’ve given some uses of “ises” that I consider valid, and these examples can be multiplied indefinitely. There are other evaluational tools that strike me as far more promising than E-Prime, for example what General Semantics calls the “extensional approach” which involves (among other things) making our definitions accountable to the facts, rather than the other way around. Acute awareness of our highly fallible nature is another tool that I believe can improve our evaluating. Neither of these approaches require the banishment of the dreaded copula, though they might help us use it more carefully, which seems to me like a good thing.
My belief that you should all stop worrying and learn to enjoy copulation probably puts me in a small minority in this tribe, but it should make interesting fodder for discussion at any rate. Knowledge “is” always a work in progress.
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Re: Objections to E-Prime
Thu, December 15, 2005 - 9:46 PMGeoff,
I have been thinking about this subject lately as well, and have some comments on what you have said, as well as some comments of my own.
Regarding your example with the sentence, "Bob is jogging", while I agree that any possible misuderstanding seems unlikely to cause a major problem, I think the general idea behind E-prime (somebody correct me if I'm wrong) would be to say that "Bob seems to me to be jogging". The latter is clearly more technically accurate, though, I agree with you that it would be overkill to spend your entire day talking like that.
"Another use of “is” that seems perfectly legitimate to me is the “is of class membership."
Yes, this is the form that I was going to bring up, that I have been thinking about lately. However, this does not always work so easily as "a triangle is not a rectangle". Take the example of "a whale is a mammal". In this instance the answer has changed based on our definitions throughout history of what a fish is and what a mammal is and what a whale is. So technically, the accurate way to phrase it would be that "based on current popular definitions of the two words, a whale is a mammal." This seems to me to be a completely legitimate use of the word "is" without any distortion or misrepresentation.
"Furthermore, it seems that we can make perfectly idiotic, unjust, incomprehensible, and bigoted claims in perfect E-Prime."
This is true, but then at least the idiotic claims should appear more clearly indicated as the perception of the observer.
Anyways, Geoff, I think you make some very good points and I look forward to comments from others more deeply in bed with general semantics on this topic. -
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Re: Objections to E-Prime
Tue, December 20, 2005 - 7:19 PMKevin, thanks for the interesting and thoughtful comments. I’ve thought about them a bit and here’s my angle.
<”Regarding your example with the sentence, "Bob is jogging", while I agree that any possible misuderstanding seems unlikely to cause a major problem, I think the general idea behind E-prime (somebody correct me if I'm wrong) would be to say that "Bob seems to me to be jogging". The latter is clearly more technically accurate, though, I agree with you that it would be overkill to spend your entire day talking like that.”>
Yes, and I agree that there are ways in which “Bob is jogging” could be made more accurate. But the statement "Bob seems to me to be jogging" is not in proper E-Prime since it contains a “be.” So if this statement has been made more accurate by this rephrasing, it didn’t need E-Prime to do it. This gels with the point I glossed over in my first post that there are other ways to improve our evaluating that might be more helpful than E-Prime, while not suffering from some of its weaknesses. A few examples that come to mind: taking extensional/a posteriori approaches, understanding that the brain is by nature a model-builder—not a container for truths, and simply using the copula more carefully and deliberately like you just did.
Your whale/mammal example is great. I agree that the use of that unholy word in that context is totally justified. E-Primers would say something like “I classify a while as a mammal” or “the majority view in the scientific community classifies the whale as a mammal.” I kind of like these reformulations, but their use does not require any sort of full-time commitment to E-Prime.
This is an interesting idea:
<”This is true, but then at least the idiotic claims should appear more clearly indicated as the perception of the observer.”>
Maybe. Maybe on average it would make one speak more in the “observer perspective,” but it sure seems easy to get around this most of the time with a little creativity. The two E-Prime quotes from fundamentalist Christians in my first post didn’t give me any hint that the speakers recognized that they were merely stating an interpretation of their finite experience, they were proclaiming The Truth! Then again, the whole article wasn’t in E-Prime and maybe it would be difficult to keep up that sort of façade for an article-length piece defending fundamentalist Christianity. Who knows?
What I’d like to meet is a person who could speak Ebonics-Prime. -
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Re: Objections to E-Prime
Wed, December 21, 2005 - 2:29 AMI must admit, that as I currently see it I do agree with your position. I suppose it is best to see E-prime as a mental exercise than an all out verbal goal.
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Unsu...
Re: Objections to E-Prime
Mon, December 19, 2005 - 4:26 PMMany good points, Geoff. Some quick thoughts of my own...
<snip>It seems to me that what is needed is not the removal of the copula from our language, but more careful and considered usage of that Swiss Army Knife of verbs. We can evaluate uses of “is” on a case-to-case basis rather than relying on the seemingly dogmatic generalization “is = bad.”</snip>
I tend to agree, but the seemingly dogmatic generalisation seems like a good placetime to start. When one is confronted with not using the verb *in any tense at all*, they may quickly realise some assumptions that had hidden beneath their previous structure(s), without the burden of having to consider "is 'is' appropriate here or not?" (enough of a burden on communication to figure out what to replace it with). Having practised E-Prime a bit, I still employ _is_ because it is easy; because speed of communication is more important to me (in this context) than the strange identity relationships I may assume by using it. As Geoff pointed out, some things are unnecessarily awkward to say in English without throwing an _is_ in the works. I don't think the solution (assuming the problem is valid) is to eliminate the _is_ so much as replace it with something more proper. It sounds awkward to say "Josh running" (when meaning "Josh is running"), but that awkwardness is learned; it could be as well learned to reply something like "Josh does running" in response to the question, "what Josh does now?" (I say 'something like' because the deeper structure--or something like that--of our language may require a different arrangement than this--of course, it may be possible to change that structure too). The gist is to communicate what Josh *does* instead of what Josh *is*, because the former facilitates a dynamic model in which things are allowed to change their qualities (essentially, their is-ness) without causing cognitive dissonance (eg, how can Josh *be* good and bad [if good and bad are mutually exclusive]? because sometimes he *does* good and sometimes he *does* bad [according to the judge's values]; he *is* not either one).
Most problems I see with E-Prime are--as Geoff pointed out--in the domain of science and logic (which, if I recall correctly, is where GS is meant to help most). Classical logic is founded on identifying objects according to observations. "Humans are wicked; Joshua is human; ergo, Joshua is wicked." (I will not bother arguing the [lack of] rigour of any observations, there.) Yes, we could say something such as, "Humans have qualities which we have labeled _wicked_ for the sake of argument and knowledge; Joshua has qualities which indicate he belongs (!) to the group we have labeled _human_; therefore, Joshua possesses those qualities which we call _wicked_." But that's a mouthful; very inefficient no matter how much more true, and (according to some observations and conclusions of some scientists) efficiency (or something enough like it to call it such) has (as a figure of speech and not in any Intelligent-Design-sort of way) guided (our, meaning [whatever group or list of groups we belong to]) linguistic (not necessarily like biological) evolution. (Some things must be assumed or we would keep going off at the mouth/keyboard all day long.) I often simply use *may be* in place of *is* in situations such as this: "Humans may be wicked; Joshua may be a human; ergo, Joshua may be wicked." It is still awkward, and it is not classically sound nor does it say anything really definitive about the subject--but I find it communicates a desirable openness of mind. Of course, we have to draw the lines somwherewhen--whether we do it with _is_ or otherwise--or we could not communicate (and I suspect, could not *know*, except in a gnostic or zen sense); in other words, we have to close things--draw circles around them, in a manner--such that we can distinguish them from and combine them with other things for whatever purpose. I think the critical point is to not identify the thing with the circle around it such that it becomes difficult or impossible to change the shape or size of the circle--or erase it completely--as becomes desirable/necessary. -
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Re: Objections to E-Prime
Wed, January 4, 2006 - 3:44 PMJoshua, sorry to take so long to get back to you. The point you made that jumped out at me most is that forcing oneself to use E-Prime can expose some assumptions that had been hidden by the linguistic structure. I think you're right about this. In some cases, being forced to formulate speech without "is" can cause one to reexamine why they might think something, and what evidence their claim is based on. I have experienced this myself, and being aware of E-Prime, and thinking about it, and discussing it with others had made me more aware of cases where I was using "is" in ways that masked certain assumptions, or led to lazy thinking.
And I fully agree that we should weed out *bad* uses of "is." In my view, that's just a matter of using the English language carefully and deliberately. But I think that E-Primers go way too far with the view that the only good "is" is a dead "is." -
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Re: Objections to E-Prime
Thu, January 5, 2006 - 9:53 AMI don't claim any true expertise in E-Prime, but have found it a fascinating mental exercise to use it for a year (at least when in the Maybe Logic forum). You have to get over those 'seems to me' boring and clumsy versions.
E-Prime, with a little practice, does not draw attention to itself in that way.
I need to know how YOU know that Bob 'is' jogging. Then you end up with ordinary English again "I can see Bob jogging past the window; Bob told me he goes jogging every morning at this time; Bob just used his mobile to call me during his jog, etc".
The continuous present seems a pretty harmless use to me - most other languages don't use it. You'll find Spanish simply saying "Voy" which English can say as "I go, I do go, I am going". A lot of people use E-Prime Lite (E-Choice) once they can distinguish between the different forms. Until you can distinguish these uses though, I recommend re-thinking (re-writing) to squeeze them all out. Apart from anything else, it improves your writing - it gets rid of the passive tense, and makes you employ a wider range of verbs.
MIFOS (notice that almost hidden verb 'to be' in "I'm" - it sneaks in everywhere!) -
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Unsu...
Re: Objections to E-Prime
Thu, January 5, 2006 - 10:24 AM<snip>I need to know how YOU know that Bob 'is' jogging. Then you end up with ordinary English again "I can see Bob jogging past the window; Bob told me he goes jogging every morning at this time; Bob just used his mobile to call me during his jog, etc".</snip>
Nicely done.
And thank you for your reply, Geoff. -
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Re: Objections to E-Prime
Thu, January 5, 2006 - 12:01 PMThanks. I don't have the wits or ambition to defend 'absolute' E-Prime, and I hate ugly English so I would always let that verb slip in if just seems easier at the time (why beat yourself up?)
Still, Geoff implied that E-Prime wouldn't stop you talking nonsense which I think almost goes without saying. If every English sentence contained an 'is' you could eliminate it might prove different...but I just find E-Prime the most effective of available tools for tackling sloppy thinking. After that you have to work on Generalizations, Nominalizations (reification) and all the other language traps...
RAW admits in the Introduction that he couldn't write about conspiracies in Everything Is Under Control without that verb (it goes with that kind of thinking). You can read Quantum Psychology, however, and never even notice the absence...
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Re: Objections to E-Prime
Fri, January 6, 2006 - 6:56 AMin a loose sense, "bob is jogging".
in a deeper philosophical sense, we can't prove that we are really here at all.
by saying, "to me, bob seems like he's jogging" (even though it is a mouthful), is actually closer to the deeper state of affairs that we call "reality". -
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Re: Objections to E-Prime
Fri, January 6, 2006 - 7:01 AMtoo early in the morning-corrected:
"by saying, "to me, bob seems like he's jogging" (even though it is a mouthful), then that becomes closer to the deeper state of affairs that we call "reality"."
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Unsu...
Re: Objections to E-Prime
Fri, January 6, 2006 - 8:59 AM<snip>by saying, "to me, bob seems like he's jogging" (even though it is a mouthful), is actually closer to the deeper state of affairs that we call "reality".</snip>
If I may play devil's advocate a bit here...
Why cannot the seeming be implied?
The thing about "Bob is jogging" is that it quickly communicates information about what Bob is doing right now (a lot or a little info, depending on what I already know about Bob). If I ask, "what is Bob doing right now?" I don't want you telling me about how things *seem* to you. It's not about you; it's about Bob: what is *Bob* doing? "Bob is jogging" effectively communicates that. I don't get confused and identify Bob w/ jogging; although I can make some more or less probable inferences about Bob, knowing his activity, I don't necessarily accept them as certainties. I don't need to get metaphysical about it, considering "what is 'right now'?" and I don't need to consider the role of the observer. I just need to know, in as few words (energy) as possible, what Bob's up to at this moment.
I still think efficiency is a key ingredient here, and I suspect our larger population will continue to evolve with that despite the most reasonable efforts of E-Pime advocates. Although, I agree that Bob Wilson's writing is an excellent example of effective E-Prime--like Toby said, you don't even notice the absence--so maybe it is possible to adapt it the practise to nearer everyone. -
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Re: Objections to E-Prime
Fri, January 6, 2006 - 9:29 AMJoshua says <"Why cannot the seeming be implied?">
I couldn't agree more! Normal english can proceed on the assumption that any knowledge of the world is the conjectures of fallible nervous system. There is no need to build this awareness into the language. Also, for the record "to me, bob seems like he's jogging" is not proper E-Prime since it uses a contracted form of the dreaded verb. -
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Re: Objections to E-Prime
Fri, January 6, 2006 - 2:38 PM"Normal english can proceed on the assumption that any knowledge of the world is the conjectures of fallible nervous system."
Optimally, yes. But, unfortunately a large amount of people don't interpret language in that way...
We can't assume that everyone is analyzing communication in the ways we are... -
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Re: Objections to E-Prime
Fri, January 6, 2006 - 3:02 PMI agree with Kevin - we can't assume that.
And apart from in a forum, I never talk about this directly, or preach, or try to convert people. Why would I? I don't speak it perfectly, for sure, but every small change I make has an effect.
I find it changes the way I think about things, and that probably changes my relating and communicating anyway, and invisibly.
No-one need ever know (or does that sound too much like the 'whooo' version of NLP - 'manipulating people'?)
How can anyone see it that way? I just left something out...just like I spent my whole life as a vegetarian and never tried to tell people they should leave something out of their own lives... Why should they?
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Re: Objections to E-Prime
Tue, January 10, 2006 - 2:23 AMit seems to me that you missed my point. i think you are putting forth an argument based on a philosophically "loose" sense of reality and what you are seeing right in front of your eyes when you "see" bob jogging and also think you can tell objectively what someone else is thinking. what if bob seemed to be running to you but in bob's mind he was on a runners' high and was fantasizing about his new car and had no idea he was running and getting his attention would be breaking his trance and in a sense you would be imposing your perception of reality on him.
in a philosophically "deep" sense, we can't "prove" that we arent inside (excuse this metaphor and i never really use it but it makes things clearer maybe) of the matrix. so by using e-prime in science and in our every day linguistics, we are training ourselves to see and think of things all the time on a philosophically deeper level. science is perfect for e-prime as well and if you are familiar with wilson then you might already be familiar with his wavicles argument and how e-prime resolves that dillema at least on some levels.
also, "seeming" can't be implied when you deal with a world full of objectivists. -
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Re: Objections to E-Prime
Tue, January 10, 2006 - 10:45 AMHayden, are you adressing me or Joshua? -
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Unsu...
Re: Objections to E-Prime
Mon, January 16, 2006 - 8:39 AM<snip>joshua actually</snip>
Oops; sorry. I stopped paying attn--been away for a while.
<snip>it seems to me that you missed my point. i think you are putting forth an argument based on a philosophically "loose" sense of reality and what you are seeing right in front of your eyes when you "see" bob jogging and also think you can tell objectively what someone else is thinking.</snip>
I think you are taking my point further than I intended it. I don't recall saying anything about objectively knowing what someone else is thinking. All I said was that, if I want you to communicate to me what Bob is doing at this moment, "Bob is jogging" communicates that to me without you having to say that it seems that way to you, or that your eye-brain receptors are receiving information such that you can infer that Bob is moving his body in a way consistent with your concept of jogging, or whatever. If you had any reason to assume Bob was thinking about something specific whilst jogging, then you might reply something like, "Oh, Bob is jogging. Probably thinking about [whatever]." I see no assumption in your (rhetorical you) part of this conversation that you have some telepathic ability to see into Bob's head, but if there was any doubt on my part, the word 'probably' helps to distinguish that your are not certain yourself, but making an assumption that I can either accept or dismiss based on my assumptions of how well I think you know what is going on inside of Bob's head. Yes, there is a lot of assuming going on, but not the sort of thing we labour over; indeed, it happens w/o our having to consciously think about it at all. Thus it improves the efficiency of our communication.
Also, the possibility of you being wrong doesn't change much either way as far as my relationship to Bob is concerned. Eg, say Bob wasn't actually jogging; you just thought he was. If you told me "Bob is jogging", then the statement is false. If you told me, "Bob said he was going jogging" or "I saw Bob jogging as I pulled into the driveway" (but he has since moved onto some other action), then even though those statements are true (at least more so than the statement "Bob is jogging"), neither of them tells me more about *what Bob is doing* than the false "Bob is jogging". So why bother complicating it? If I have reason to doubt you ("really? Bob doesn't usually jog on Sundays"), then I might ask you how you know Bob is jogging, but otherwise, how is that information pertinent to my wanting to know what state Bob is in right now? Of course "jogging" doesn't communicate anything near the totality of Bob's immediate psycho-/physiological processing, but it does a good enough job that we effectively employ it all the time, and in any case, how does your explicating that you don't know anything more about Bob's immediate processing than the jogging aspect of it improve our communication or my knowledge about Bob's present state?
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Re: Objections to E-Prime
Mon, January 16, 2006 - 10:29 AMHayden,
<"in a philosophically "deep" sense, we can't "prove" that we arent inside (excuse this metaphor and i never really use it but it makes things clearer maybe) of the matrix. so by using e-prime in science and in our every day linguistics, we are training ourselves to see and think of things all the time on a philosophically deeper level.">
Sure, it is in some sense "possible" that we all exist in something like the Matrix, but I don't see how E-prime addresses this philosophical problem, nor how it makes us see things on a deeper philosohical level. Consider these statements:
1. Bob is jogging.
2. Bob is an auto mechanic.
3. Bob owns a leather jacket.
4. Bob has ebola.
The first 2 are in E-Prime and 3 and 4 are in English. If we are in the matrix, then all these statements seem (in a sense) false for exactly the same reasons. And that reason is not the superficial reason that they are constructed using a certain verb. It is the deeper reason that they all (regardles of linguistic structure) presuppose that the experiences of our nervous systems as we commonly understand them in some sense "represent" some deeper reality. With respect to skeptical philosophical issues like this it's not clear how E-Prime is supposed to help. -
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Re: Objections to E-Prime
Tue, January 17, 2006 - 2:49 AMI do find the resistance to this idea very amusing. 'Bob is jogging' probably forms the weakest argument against E-Prime, as the ‘is’ in that sentence really doesn’t mean ‘to be’, any more than ‘have’ in 'I have heard that song' comes from the verb ‘to have or possess’. These accidents or ‘spooks’ of language really do not matter in General Semantic terms. Most other European languages do not even have a ‘progressive tense’ using the verb ‘to be’ as an auxiliary, so that ‘voy’ in Spanish can mean ‘I go, I am going or I do go’.
No point in arguing that you feel the need to distinguish 'Bob jogs, Bob is jogging, Bob does jog' – because you can’t in Spanish, without adding other words…
Just to add to your confusion, Spanish has two verbs ‘to be’, one for temporary states (I am thirsty, I am in the bar) and one for permanent ones (I am American, I am a man). I would guess that E-Prime mostly attempts to challenge the uses that imply permanent features ('is of identity' or 'is of what they call predication'). Bear in mind that other languages don’t always say things the same way, anyway. (In Spanish ‘my name is John’ comes out as ‘I call myself John’ and the E-Prime issue simply doesn’t arise). Have fun working on S-Prime!
For a lucid discussion, try Robert Anton Wilson who makes it clear that E-Prime doesn’t come from obsession, but simply makes life easier: www.nobeliefs.com/eprime.htm
"Korzybski pointed out the pitfalls associated with, and produced by, two usages of "to be": identity and predication. His student D. David Bourland, Jr., observed that even linguistically sensitive people do not seem able to avoid identity and predication uses of 'to be' if they continue to use the verb at all."
You can see five basic uses of ‘to be’ laid out on the Wiki page, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-Prime where you will see that its use as an Auxiliary (Bob is jogging) or to describe Existence (there is a Bob) or Location (Bob is in the park) do not lead to any real problems.
If you find it easy to spot the difference then just use E-Choice. E-Prime simply makes communication more fluent, as you don’t have to keep stopping and thinking how you have used the verb. Very useful for people like me who would not describe themselves as 'linguistically sensitive'!
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Unsu...
Re: Objections to E-Prime
Tue, January 17, 2006 - 11:11 AMFtr, I was still playing devil's advocate. I rather enjoy E-Prime, esp as a recognition of doing-as-being ("stupid is as stupid does").
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Re: Objections to E-Prime
Tue, January 17, 2006 - 12:49 PMI'm glad I'm amusing you Toby. At least I'm amusing someone. And I'm not merely playing devil's advocate here--I'm really not convinced that E-Prime is helpful as anything more than a cognitive excercise, a sort of game. I'm not just trying to be stubborn and aggrivate people--I'm taking the issue seriously and presenting what I consider to be reasonable arguments to the effect that E-Prime asks us to make unreasonable linguistic sacrifices, and that the alleged benefits of E-Prime may be a linguistic mirage. I've read arguments from E-Prime advocates like Wilson and arguments from the Kodishes against certain forms of "isness" I simply found them unconvincing. So I'm responding the way anyone might respond if someone advocated say, removing the word "to do" or "to have" from english.
I find this subject and these arguments interesting. If anyone doesn't, they have my blessing to change the channel. -
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Re: Objections to E-Prime
Wed, January 18, 2006 - 1:51 AMGeoff, just debating things amuses me, and I didn't think of you as frivolous (I certainly wouldn't take time to frame an answer if I thought that). I take the thing seriously, too, but I have no missionary zeal, just enthusiasm.
I can quite see why people (most people) think they can do without this shift in the use of the language. I don't really think of it as giving something up, though. If, as a writer or thinker, I suggested trying to eliminate the use of the passive voice (a common style suggestion) I wouldn't expect you to say "I am not giving up the passive voice, it is a perfectly useful bit of English") but at the same time I would accept that we don't all agree on 'good style'.
As I tried to point out before, most friends of mine have no idea I have attempted to use this style. No-one has ever said that I 'talk funny - "aha I know what it is, you don't use the verb 'to be'!"
Just as an exercise, I may try to force forms of the verb 'to be' into every sentence, and eliminate E-Prime that way.
I think we should allow ourselves the right to attempt wit or humour, even when having a 'serious' discussion. I certainly did not intend it as a personal attack, although I am told (passive) that I can be (heh) sarcastic at times. -
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Re: Objections to E-Prime
Wed, January 18, 2006 - 3:56 PMToby, as I'm sure you've discovered, it's sometimes hard to tell how people mean things over the internet. =) I'm glad you're still aboard for this little E-Prime pow-wow. I find that I usually learn more from people who hold views very different from mine. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Objections to E-Prime
Thu, January 19, 2006 - 4:57 AMGeoff - that's (see the hidden 'is'?) precisely why I enjoy discussing it with you. I do find it tricky, not having emoticons in Tribe, or the ability to go back and edit once the message got posted. But as I said, I don't have a vested interest in any of this.
My involvement started when Robert Anton Wilson requested, in a couple of his online courses at the Maybe Logic Academy, that students post entirely in E-Prime - and it caused an uproar among certain students. I represent the gang who decided to simply attempt the tutor's suggestion, on the assumption he had a purpose - found it very helpful after a bit of practice - but have also spent quite a lot of time talking to people who argued against the whole thing. In the process they forgot to actually do the course work, or belligerently and defiantly posted with highlighted is/was phrasing, or pedantically and sarcastically made it sound ugly and clumsy to prove their point of the futility of the exercise.
Hence my amusement - as not all remained as lucid and relevant as you, pinpointing the actual weaknesses in the theory. I spent a lot of time teasing people getting red in the face and angry about spending money on a course and then having a tutor ask them to actually try something new (!) They presumably found it hard to show-off their knowledge and compete intellectually when wrong-footed by a cunning old teacher...
Even funnier, most of them seemed like the English speakers, who had larger language resources. Our Belgian, German, Scandinavian and Spanish students just seemed to take on the challenge, even though they had far fewer options for re-wording. Some of us had very fruitful discussions about the experience, the valuable lesson, the difficulties, etc. A few of us even seem to have adopted it permanently as a discipline, at least within the MLA forum (and in turn get accused of being zealots!) Hilarious! -
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Re: Objections to E-Prime
Thu, January 19, 2006 - 10:07 AMHey, that sounds like a fun excercise. I'm always up for a little sport. Especially if RAW is involved, since I'm a big fan of his books. I'd probably "be" the obnoxious guy using E-Prime to argue against E-Prime. -
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Re: Objections to E-Prime
Sun, January 29, 2006 - 6:56 PMSome of you might like to actually try using E-Prime for a few months (even just the written format).
If we imagined, for a moment (and just for fun), a race or duel where E-Prime users came up against those doing their best to maintain the old I AM banner ... how do you imagine such a contest would progress?
Tick...tick...tick... (we shall allow a few minutes for that question to permeate into the grey cells) ...
From this perspective, most of you would probably look like you try to run a race with your knickers down around your ankles. -
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An actual example
Mon, January 30, 2006 - 3:06 PMHeh - you really ought to have visited the Maybe Logic Forum a few months ago - when some of the gang insisted they HAD to use that verb, and others of us continued the debate in E-Prime. Eventually we got accused of pedantry when we kept picking people up on it, or simply rephrasing their comments before responding (in fact we got called E-Prime Nazis, which led to several other threads).
We enjoyed some fine confrontations and trade-offs, and no-one felt sure who had their tongue in their cheek (the group contained more than one agent provocateur, I could tell). We went through E-Choice, colour-coding, inverted commas, cheating ungrammatically to hide the usage (writing things like "I maybe full of shit"), etc.
Hilarious and educational, and I could see why certain practitioners (our lawyers and magickians in particular) said they couldn't live without 'it'. "Were you at the scene of the crime?" "Maybe you'd have seen me there". "Yes or No! Were you there?"
Generally, I use it in that particular forum because both it feels like a house style. For instance, when Kent wrote a Mission Statement as editor of our magazine, (and he argued hard against the universal application of E-Prime)
"The Maybe Quarterly is an online publication led by the students of Maybe Logic Academy, which will be published four times per year. The focus of this publication is to present groundbreaking multimedia content produced by the students based on the Academy’s courses and the principles of Maybe Logic. Maybe Logic is a philosophical approach to the most urgent problems facing humankind; emphasizing the fallibility and relativity of perception, which approaches these problems facing human society with questions, probabilities, and multiple perspectives, rather than reducing and limiting all of humanity to simplistic black-and-white dualistic solutions. "
Robert Anton Wilson and the Admin E-Primed it for publication - Do you think it makes a difference?
"The Maybe Quarterly represents an online publication led by the members of Maybe Logic Academy, with publication scheduled four times per year. This publication intends to present groundbreaking multimedia content produced by Academy members and based upon the Academy’s courses and the principles of Maybe Logic. Maybe Logic attempts a neurolinguistic approach to the most urgent problems facing humankind; emphasizing the fallibility and relativity of perception and an approach to problems and information with questions, probabilities, and multiple perspectives."
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Re: Objections to E-Prime
Fri, January 6, 2006 - 5:20 PMIt seems to me that you don't argue against the use of e-prime as a cognitive or communicational tool, but against e-prime proffered as dogma. I'd agree with such an objection, but I wouldn't cast it as an objection to e-prime per se. -
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Re: Objections to E-Prime
Fri, January 6, 2006 - 6:43 PMEileen, I have pointed out several kinds of uses of "is" that I consider legitimate, and insofar as they appear legitimate to anyone, they call into question the value of E-Prime as a cognitive or communicational tool.
Maybe the use of E-Prime has cognitive benefits that I do not yet recognize. I had that in mind when I started this thread. And I agree with Toby that E-Prime becomes invisible when used well, and that the reduction of the passive voice might benefit language. One can use the passive voice in E-Prime, as in the sentence "the mouse got eaten by the cat," but E-Prime certainly makes it more difficult to construct passive-voice sentences!
I do tend to buy into the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis that a speaker's language strongly conditions their thought, but I question E-Prime's value as a way to reshape our thought, and in the cost/benefit analysis going on in my head, so far the cost side looks greater.
But it certainly can't hurt to try out E-Prime. I used it to write this post! -
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To Be or not To Be
Sat, January 7, 2006 - 2:24 AMPerhaps you meet people who got nutty about this, and turned it into a cult. To me it consists of a mental exercise, like Crowley's one of leaving out the word "I" from communication (amusingly enough some of us at the MLA noticed that the use of "I" increased when using E').
As I understand it, Korzybski did not take the extreme position. After all, he said things like "The map IS not the territory" (not "do not confuse the map with the territory") and "There ARE two ways to slide easily through life: to believe everything or to doubt everything; both ways save us from thinking."
The Wikipedia entry explains it all very clearly, and gives links to the Institute of General Semantics, etc.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-Prime -
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Re: To Be or not To Be
Mon, January 9, 2006 - 1:24 PMRight, Korzybski didn't buy into E-Prime. And I have no problem with E-Prime understood as a cognitive excercise. -
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Re: To Be or not To Be
Tue, January 10, 2006 - 2:15 AMEspecially since it was proposed after his death. -
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Re: To Be or not To Be
Tue, January 10, 2006 - 4:37 PMheh
You might enjoy flexing your mind around the Top Ten Arguments Against E-Prime
learn-gs.org/library/etc/49-2-french.pdf
And note it comes from ETC, the journal of the Institute of General Semantics archives
learn-gs.org/library/etc/#is
You might even enjoy the compromise, as stated in E-Prime or E-Choice
learn-gs.org/library/etc...-menefee.pdf -
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Unsu...
Re: To Be or not To Be
Thu, March 2, 2006 - 2:14 PMOk, I *am* posting to an old thread here, but E' *is* one of my favorite tools, and one that has yielded a great amount of mental change for me, so as my first post here on gs, this seems like a good place to start .
"I do tend to buy into the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis that a speaker's language strongly conditions their thought, but I question E-Prime's value as a way to reshape our thought, and in the cost/benefit analysis going on in my head, so far the cost side looks greater. "
Just as one cannot determine the utility of a tool without first using it, I think one cannot judge the value of E' or any other tool without first trying it out.
That said... I have used E' in my writing for more than five years now, and it has directly triggered several changes in my thinking. As you may see from my first post, I now use is when I find it convenient, or during "small talk" periods (how's the weather? How are you? etc.).
I consider it unneccessary to go "all or nothing" with E'. Just as I don't use a calculator for basic math, I don't bother with E' when I intend to chat with a friend, or argue a position with a skilled debater. I also don't bother convincing others of the use of this tool anymore... different strokes for different folks.
E' may seem pedantic when we discuss examples like Bob's jogging habits or the color of the sky. However, translating those pieces of information into E' sentences allowed me practice so I could use E' in more complicated situations. I could compare this to the way I instruct my teenage son in algebra: I make him take the time to solve easy problems the "right way" through a step-by-step process rather than doing the problem in his head, so he can use the same principles in more difficult problems.
Maybe it helped that I had a defined purpose, or goal, when I started using E'. I wanted to remove the more transparent, embedded generalizations in my mind. When I had to start rephrasing my opinions... for example, I changed "Fundamentalist Christians are foolish" to "I do not share the beliefs of Fundamentalist Christians, and their ideas seem silly to me," I found myself more tolerant of the idea that other people have different ideas from me, and their viewpoints don't invalidate mine. When someone screams "You are a sinner!" that "are" pops out and I evaluate the sentence for facts. When I don't see any, I can rephrase their statement so it doesn't affect me personally.
Is created identity associations. We see this most detrimentally in imbedded loser scripts like "I am not athletic enough" or "I am not smart enough" or "I am a failure," etc. Removing *is* from my thought patterns has provided invaluable personal flexibility. With the addition of time-binding I can separate old expressions of ME from the current ME, and therefore, those old scripts no longer hold power over my perception of my abilities.
As an accused "E-Prime Nazi" I can understand the viewpoints of those who react negatively to E'. I feel passionate about the use of E' because I have gained so much from it. But then, my sister feels passionate about Jesus because she has gained so much from her religion.
So maybe I can't get my sister to say "I believe God had a son called Jesus that came to earth to forgive our sins" instead of "Jesus is Lord!" with all its negative consequenses for nonbelievers like me.
However, I can refrain from making such statements myself, and thereby validate E' as a way for me to avoid boxing in other people or myself, drawing premature conclusions (and what conclusion is not premature?), or inadvertently creating subconscious prejudices that may not correlate to reality.
It works wonders for me. If you feel an interest, I say try it. If not, there are plenty of other tools out there. -
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Re: To Be or not To Be
Fri, March 3, 2006 - 2:07 AMHi Minja
thanks for your lucid restatement of the theme of this thread.
Good to see you here!
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Re: Objections to E-Prime
Fri, March 10, 2006 - 1:03 PMI have been thinking about this more and discussing it with other people, and I've come to the (tentative) conclusion that I like some things about E-Prime. For one thing, thinking about E-Prime has made me more aware of the insidious uses of "is" that lurk in some of my own lazy thinking and that of other people. I have in mind here the sorts of Aristotelian essence claims that dominate so much dogmatic thinking and easily fly under the radar in normal english writing and debate. ("Is" the fetus a person? "Is" intelligent design a science?) I also think maybe E-Prime makes it easier to shift from a metaphysical orientation to an epistemic orientation, in other words a shift from thinking in terms of the indwelling nature of things to thinking in terms of how we arrive at our conclusions about the behavior and properties of things. I think E-Prime does this in a haphazard and extremely imperfect way, as shown by the ease of making ridiculous E-Prime statements like "God loves me more than she loves you." If we think of E-Prime as brain software, as in Wilson's metaphor, we should think of it as an extremely buggy piece of software, but one that may have some utility if used by people with the right intentions (does that make it obvious enough that I work as a software tester?).
That said, I still see plenty of legitimate uses of "is," and I remain unconvinced that the "is of identity" or the "is of predication" in particular represent flawed thinking or flawed language. I suspect that almost any idea that can find expression in English can find a suitable E-Prime translation. But if any statement absolutely resists E-Prime translation does that render it meaningless? -
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Unsu...
Re: Objections to E-Prime
Fri, March 10, 2006 - 1:43 PMHi Geoff,
I find it admirable that you have spent a good amount of time contemplating the value of E' to you. I think everyone should apply the same process to every map or tool they encounter. Taking another's word for it when it comes to stuff like this only enforces the dominion of the Robot, in my opinion.
That said, in your last paragraph you asked "But if any statement absolutely resists E-Prime translation does that render it meaningless?"
Rather than discuss this hypothetically, why don't we look at some specific examples and examine them? Could you offer a couple examples you think would resist E' translation?
You also said "That said, I still see plenty of legitimate uses of "is," and I remain unconvinced that the "is of identity" or the "is of predication" in particular represent flawed thinking or flawed language."
After many years of use, my "is" restrictions have laxed a lot in the last few months, primarily in the arenas of chatty or familiar online postings and emails. I only bother with E' in spoken word when I find a conflict arises as a result of an "is" statement. After a number of strict years, I find myself migrating to E-Choice, which means I determine when I find it important to rephrase ises that come out in my writing or speaking.
As for whether or not the "is of identity" represents flawed thinking or flawed language.... I see an imbedded "is of identity" within that statement. It asks us to determine whether or not we think using forms of to be "is" flawed. Rather than that, I would rephrase the statement of interest to "Does avoiding is of identity clarify my thinking? Do I find removing is from my language useful on my path of understanding?"
From that vantage point, I think we'd more likely enter into a valuable discussion on the merits or drawbacks of E-Prime as we see them individually. Discussing whether or not E' *is* flawed just turns into a YES/NO argument the way I see it. And that points directly to my reasons for employing E' in my thinking internally, and in my writing externally. I see no value in arguing whether or not a fetus *is* a person, or whether or not E' *is* flawed.
I avoid such arguments primarily because I see the individual as the primary holder of Authority. We all differ in our values, conclusions, perspectives on life... even among those within affinity groups you will find many differences of opinion. If I argue with another person about abortion, or religion, or E-Prime, I think that engaging in that argument suggests that one side *is* more valid than the other in an absolute, objective sense.
As a relativist (thanks to E' among other things) such arguments seem meaningless to me. But ten years ago when I competed in Lincoln-Douglas value debate, I couldn't win without making is-of-identity statements. If you want to convince someone that your point of view's validity should extend past your own nervous system, then you almost have to employ the is brigade.
Again, I consider E' only a tool, not a dogma or a rule. Just as I wouldn't recommend a hammer to someone painting miniature figures, I don't recommend E' to everyone. But for an anal authoritarian third-circuit debater like me 10 years ago, it helped me to drastically change my thinking, and I think I live a happier, more fulfilling and less conflict-ridden life as a result of the use of E'.
But your mileage may vary! Keeping an open mind about the myriad tools available to us can't but help us on our paths of self-discovery and growth. -
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Re: Objections to E-Prime
Fri, March 10, 2006 - 8:13 PMMinja, thanks for some really interesting feedback.
<"in your last paragraph you asked "But if any statement absolutely resists E-Prime translation does that render it meaningless?" Rather than discuss this hypothetically, why don't we look at some specific examples and examine them? Could you offer a couple examples you think would resist E' translation?">
Okay, I don't know what I think about this question. I always hesitate to call a statement meaningless, because of the possibility that I simply cannot see the meaning that someone else might see. Okay, I'll try a couple. How about "God 'is' love." I've never understood what that meant, and it involves a conspicuous "is." When I gave my friend this example in a discussion of E-Prime he told me he wouldn't bother explaining it to me because I wasn't a Christian. Maybe you could explain it to me. Maybe I need to do more psychedelics.
How about another one of my favorites: "Science 'is' a religion" It somehow escaped me that science and religion share the same Aristotelian essence. I must "be" brainwashed by the left-wing media.
Another one, hmm... "Aryans "are" the master race."
I can't think of any others right now, but Robert Anton Wilson says that E-Prime renders 99.9999999% of metaphysics meaningless, and I disagree with him on this. I believe that nearly all metaphysics can find adequate translation into E-Prime, except for those ideas that don't even make sense in plain English. But I need to think this through more. I raised the question mainly because of my curiosity about what statements the real E-Primers would consider meaningless. -
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Unsu...
Re: Objections to E-Prime
Fri, March 10, 2006 - 8:50 PMHeh. As one who was (jokingly) called an E-Prime Nazi on another forum, I feel pretty comfortable offering my perspective to you on your examples. Thanks for taking the time to write them out, as I had totally misperceived the intent of your original question.
I suppose the best place to start is with your statements...
"God is love." Yeah, I've thought about this one a number of times. My sister acts like a Fundie with her religion, and I chose to go to church (without my non-religious parents) as a kid, so I have heard it a couple of times and can elaborate.
The person offering the statement probably wouldn't like E-Prime, but if by some strange miracle s/he did, they might rephrase as "I consider God the same as love." You may notice the message still conveys the same information, but with the "I consider" it reflects that the statement (and its truth or untruth) resides within the individual conveying the information.
Some people think it doesn't make a difference, so why bother rephrasing? But I would argue that it does in fact make a big difference. Let's look at a more severe *is* statement that I've heard straight from my sister -
"Jesus is the Son of God, and the only way to Heaven is through Him."
*Is* it just me, or does that sound like my big sister trying to throw around Authority with me to convince me that believing differently than her IS wrong/sinful/evil/naughty? Trust me, 10 years ago when she'd call me to see if I had "accepted Jesus as my savior yet" I found it nearly impossible to even talk to her because of the blatant Judgements she'd serve down to me.
Now, of course, and Evangelistic Christian would never tone down The Message... that would defeat the purpose of "being" Evangelistic, but what if she rephrased the statement in E-Prime?
"I believe that God made a virgin pregnant and she had God's baby, called Jesus. According to my beliefs, Jesus saves us from an eternity of Hellfire and Brimstone if we just believe in Him."
Yeah, that's long. I could shorten it, but I must admit - I have a lot of fun rephrasing "meaningless" statements like that into E-Prime. Sometimes I get carried away. But do you notice a lack of judgement on the one receiving the message? I do.
When I first started studying E-Prime via Robert Anton Wilson's Prometheus Rising, I saw that rephrasing without "is" requires one to think about the message and phrase it in the most accurate way possible. One way to do this is through acknowledgement that not all we hold to be true exists as objective fact outside our nervous systems. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that most people don't realize (or want to know) just how many of their conclusions, generalizations, and identifications come more from perspective than from something outside themselves. E-Prime forces the user to acknowledge opinion as opinion, belief as belief, and fact as fact.
But I digress. I can only hope that you may pull some meaning from my ramblings.
On to "Science is a religion." One of my favorites. See, now I'd clarify this one by quoting Bob Wilson directly:
"People who claim 100% certitude seem, in my view, a frantic crew of True Believers, trying to bullshit themselves even harder than they try to bullshit you and me. This applies especially to the kind of True Believers who call themselves Skeptics. I'm sure you can guess some of the gents I mean."
Some days I might group science with religion, other days it wouldn't. But whether or not I do depends upon the criteria I use at that time, or in other words, the map or grid through which I understand and organize information.
In short, I think rephrasing such "meaningless" statements (and if you happen to look at them from the map/grid/framework of grouping by True, False, or Meaningless, I'd place it with the third) into E-Prime exposes how much of what we equate with another thing comes from phobias and philias more often than substantiated evidence.
You can certainly rephrase lots of meaningless statements into E-Prime. difficulty often comes from rephrasing those statements of least objectivity. -
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Re: Objections to E-Prime
Mon, March 13, 2006 - 4:24 PMMinja,
My deepest regrets that you have a fundie sister. That sounds difficult. Perhaps the people who would benefit most from E-Prime resist it for that very reason.
<"E-Prime forces the user to acknowledge opinion as opinion, belief as belief, and fact as fact.">
Do you view this E-Prime statement as an opinion, a belief, or a fact? It sounds to me like a belief or an opinion, and one that I disagree with. I don't distinguish between opinion and belief, and I have always found "fact" exceedingly difficult to define outside of some definite context. E-Prime might help one separate their ideas into these categories, but I do not see how it forces this acknowledgement. For instance, you might have reprhrased your sister's statement of faith as "God made a virgin pregnant and she had God's baby, called Jesus. Jesus saves us from an eternity of hellfire and brimstone if we just beileve in Him." Here I see no acknowledgement of which of those three categories the statement falls into. I have removed your relativistic qualifiers, but otherwise left the E-Prime sentence intact, and it strikes me as every bit as dogmatic as what your sister actually said.
I find that often when people (especially RAW) rephrase English statements into E-Prime to show what a great improvement E-Prime offers, the advantage in clarity comes not from the E-Prime itself, but from adding some relativistic qualifier, or simply from making the effort to put together a well thought-out sentence. And perhaps this accounts for why some people claim that E-Prime improves thier thinking and writing--it makes one take the time to rethink what one wants to say, and this naturally makes one think about why they believe what they do, and how to convince someone else without using one of the most common words in the English language. Having read quite a bit of RAW's writings on E-Prime, I think he severely oversells it, and makes promises the system cannot deliver.
I do not mean to suggest there is nothing of value in the system. Getting people thinking outside the habitual Aristotelian essentialism box seems to me the most valuable feature of E-Prime, though not the only selling point. Earlier I came across a discussion of Islam, Christianity, and Judaism on slashdot science.slashdot.org/comments.pl and I couldn't help thinking how much a moratorium on "isness" might improve the signal-to-noise ratio.
<"I can only hope that you may pull some meaning from my ramblings.">
I do, and I find your ramblings quite thought-provoking and amusing, even if I don't agree with them on every point. Keep 'em coming.
By the way, do you have any examples of statements you consider meaningless in English, that could not find adequate translation in E-Prime? -
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Re: Objections to E-Prime
Wed, March 15, 2006 - 12:10 PMOooh, I just thought of a good one: "Math 'is' the language of nature." -
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Re: Objections to E-Prime
Thu, March 16, 2006 - 2:31 PMI have to say, that as a non-absolutist user of E-prime, such discussion seems stimulating but mostly pointless. As you indicated, Geoff, anything that makes people consider more carefully how they think and express things has benefits. Equally, I agree that E-Prime does not cure all nonsensical or dogmatic thinking.
I really don't think Bob believes that, either - although he may provocatively write that to try to urge people to actually attempt the experiment at least, not just think about it, and then dismiss it untried.
He wrote "Quantum Psychology" entirely in E-Prime (perhaps it helps that he seems pretty adept at writing English) and equally consciously did NOT write "Everything Is Under Control" in E-Prime (look at the title) as he explicitly points out in the Intro that you can't write about certain subjects without 'to be'.
As for "Math 'is' the language of nature." do you mean I should use the construction "English is the language of Toby"? Surely "Toby speaks and writes English"? -
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Re: Objections to E-Prime
Wed, March 22, 2006 - 5:17 PMToby, I didn't understand what you meant by this:
<"As for "Math 'is' the language of nature." do you mean I should use the construction "English is the language of Toby"? Surely "Toby speaks and writes English"?
Could you further explain what you saying here? I'll explain what I meant: I have heard some scientists proclaim that "math 'is' the langauge of nature" and this struck me as a phrase that contained a questionable Aristotelian-essence claim embedded within it. I thought maybe we could find a better formulation using E-Prime. Maybe something like "math describes nature more precisely than natural languages," or "nature can be studied with great precision using math." As I mentioned before, thinking about and writing with E-Prime has helped me see some of the muddles that common (i.e. lazy) usage of "is" creates. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Objections to E-Prime
Thu, March 23, 2006 - 7:49 AMSorry Geoff - got it ass-backwards.
I thought you intended to collect phrases which you liked in full English...rather than ones which would benefit from conversion to E-Prime..
I usually stay in fast conversational exchanges on forums, and completely lose the plot if I try to remember what we had in mind, if the Q&A take weeks between each response, like some weird drug of my youth...
So now you seem to have moved to agreeing that re-formulating into E-Prime has its uses?
OK, I get it.
I'll return in a few weeks when I have had time to re-read and understand the thread's sense of direction. Of course, it may take weeks of 'real time' but it will appear almost instantaneous to some who still take those kind of drugs.
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Re: Objections to E-Prime
Tue, March 28, 2006 - 1:27 PMToby, if you must do drugs in class, please bring enough to share with everyone else. =)
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Re: Objections to E-Prime
Sun, March 12, 2006 - 4:48 PMGeoff, it seems to me that one of the issues you have, it is one of the issues I have, with E' is that the verb 'to be' can be used as a very useful shorthand for the description of qualities as you experience them - i.e. "That wall is red" is a shorter and perhaps more elegant way of saying 'That wall looks red to me." And as long as I and the persons you are communicating with both understand this, then 'is' poses no problem.
On the other hand, the issue that E' propenents have with the verb 'to be' is that sumbunall people understand, or use, the verb 'to be' as making hypostatical statements about the nature of reality - i.e. "Marijuana is bad" means that Marijuana has absolutely no beneficial or redeeming qualities whatsoever, can have none because it 'is' bad...bad is it's essence. As I understand it, it is these sort of hypostatical statements that E' prime is meant to eleminate, reduce, or at leat expose for what they (the statements) are communicating, by avoiding the verb 'to be.'
Approached in the way I find E' to be, if not a perfect solution, at least a useful tool for clarifying my thinking - and sometimes the communications of others. -
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Re: Objections to E-Prime
Sun, April 2, 2006 - 1:20 PM
Psuke wrote:
That wall is red" is a shorter and perhaps more elegant way of saying 'That wall looks red to me
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Both these seem to defy E-prime. E prime was designed for the sole purpose of ceasing or reducing false to fact statements and minimizing ambiguity.
That wall is red, is not a statement about the wall. It describes the wave length of light I perceive is reflecting from the wal. if I am on a chair that is on one side of a window altering the light from the wall; I may 'think the wall is red'.
To say "The wall looks red", is confusing because it is so similar to a foriegn language speaker to "Florance saw red, because she was so angry". Did she see red, or is this an idiom?
Does the wall have the ability to look or view or perceive? A tool (ie. in this case E prime) ought to be used for the purpose for which it is created. When it is being used in a way that it was not intended, its use and usefulness ought be reevaluated.
More accurately it could have been worded (stated) "That wall, we are looking at, appears to be a red wall to this one speaking"
To go around talking like this will accomplish to great things, it will reduce unclear communication and it will probably get you locked into your own private rubber room.
"Is" the word or other prime uses of E-prime cause problems only when the issue is vital.
For example, discussions of Philosophy, religion, Political Reparations and negotiations,
and gving instructions to a Science/Medical/Etc Doctor , or Technicion for procdures or
protocols to be used for process of executing a task.
That and speaking to a nit pick (like me ;o) ) or a neurotic that looks to debate or take a
wrong turn because of every ambiguity of communcation you may use.
Speech ought to flow without restrcition, but E-prime for me is a tool to cleanse out
disorderly thinking. It is rarely a tool for clear discussions, except in rare cases.
Live long and prosper.
Victor
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Re: Objections to E-Prime
Mon, April 3, 2006 - 3:55 PM"Hey, look at that red wall!"
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Re: Objections to E-Prime
Mon, April 17, 2006 - 9:24 AMSaying 'the wall looks red to me' scans as a perfectly valid E-Prime sentence, since it does not contain the verb 'to be.' Also, I am not making any statement about the wall as such - I am making a statement about my *experience* of the wall, which conforms in accord with the spirit of E-Prime. -
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Re: Objections to E-Prime
Thu, April 20, 2006 - 9:41 AMIt seems to me that speaking of "the spirit of E-Prime" creates a strange loop. E-Prime gets presented by some authors (like Wilson) as a way of getting rid of "semantic spooks," "indwelling essences," and lingering essentialism which gets carried on long past its historical expiration date in peoples' unreflective use of English. But "the spirit of E-Prime" sounds to me a hell of a lot like one of those essentialist semantic spooks that E-Prime supposedly opposes. So speaking of the spirit of E-Prime seems to violate the spirit of E-Prime, and land us in a strange loop. -
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Unsu...
Re: Objections to E-Prime
Thu, April 20, 2006 - 1:37 PMPerhaps you just think about it too much, Geoff. :)
What DOESN'T land us in a strange loop?
Seriously, though, just like any other experiential theory, talking or thinking about it only takes one so far. Hypothesize, test, record results. I don't give a damn about how something seems, if its use aids me.
I see you splitting lots of hairs trying to determine whether or not E-Prime *is* a "good thing." Such spooks go away when you stop trying to identify and just live.
But then, that's what 3rd circuit conceptualizing overdrive *is* all about. -
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Re: Objections to E-Prime
Thu, April 20, 2006 - 2:08 PMMinja, perhaps you read more into my post than I intended. I never said a strange loop "is" a bad thing, and my recent posts haven't been aimed determining whether E-Prime "is" a good thing. Getting in the habit of writing in E-Prime here and in other tribes has convinced me that thinking outside of one box generally means thinking inside another one. Now I enjoy playing inside the E-Prime box and exploring its dimensions and quirks. I see this particular strange loop or paradox or irony about the "spirit of E-Prime" as one of the interesting quirks of this particular language game.
<"Such spooks go away when you stop trying to identify and just live.">
This may "be" true, but since I have no life, y'all have to put up with my rants! =)
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Re: Objections to E-Prime
Fri, March 9, 2007 - 6:34 AM'The Spirit of E-Prime" is the purpose for which it was intended. Since there was, in fact, such a clearly stated goal at E-Prime's inception, "the Spirit of E-Prime" is a perfectly valid construction. If I had talked about the *essence* of E-prime, there might be an issue, although since we are discussing a philosophy of language and not some sort of metaphysical unprovable reality, maybe not.
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Re: Objections to E-Prime
Sun, May 7, 2006 - 8:33 PMThe point of E-Prime and V-Prime in general is to put the speaker into active voice. The use of passive voice tends to create passivity in thinking, and that is why E-prime, while a touch dogmatic, tends to be needed.
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Re: Objections to E-Prime
Mon, May 8, 2006 - 11:17 AMVernacular Prime. Coined, I believe, by Chaos Magician Peter Carroll in a devilish attempt to add more controversy to the already boorishly controverial topic of eprime. Get ready for another 60 posts leading no where. -
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Re: Objections to E-Prime
Sat, February 17, 2007 - 2:20 PM
I plat copying and saving this whole thread for my files. Great stuff apparently appearing
therein.
I agree that the verb "to be" is not the cause of muddled thinking, but by removing it, muddled musings become more difficult for framing. Muddled thinking is a
by product of a number of factors, object/subject thinkiing and self-truth views are
two causes that commonly persist. Any time that I state that my opinion *is what is true* then I am committing *self-truth* error. My view is law.
Anytime that I state things in an object subject relationship, I am placing things in a
precarious position to accurate to fact relations.
Muddled thinking gets us through the effort of basic survival, but makes survival impossible in other times. I can have muddled thinking in a win/lose scenario of someone trying to kill me for my money, but bring religion into things and muddled thinking *leads* to a kill or be killed conflict.
Just asking.
Victor
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